the propeace community - Torture Debate - Comments

No Contest

Susan Livingston — Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:55:57 -0400

sgalindo wrote:

"There is nothing to debate, torture is always wrong, always a mistake, and always damages the perpetrator as much as the victim."

Add "generally ineffective and sometimes downright counterproductive" to this list. History has shown that people will say anything to end their torture, so any information thus gleaned is not only worthless but could actually be damaging.

I, too, was recently involved in a debate that explored the question, "Is torture ever justified?" The point I made that was not addressed in that debate is that there is a world of difference between justifying torture under some constrained set of circumstances and humbly admitting that I might succumb to the temptation to torture under a similarly constrained set of circumstances in which I personally experience "deep seated fear, a sense of inadequacy," or feelings of total helplessness, such as the kidnap of my own child. Thanks for helping me to articulate this distinction.

Editor, propeace.net

America Ghraib

John Klar — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:10:24 -0400

I wholeheartedly concur. I am sickened that my countrymen have not sooner put a stop to this surreal, insane America, let alone that this evil president, whose true colors show through more each day, would try to push his anti-Christian torture fetish through the Congress, the Supreme Court, and the American people. It's time someone slapped his little hand away from the cookie jar (Pandora's box of evil?) like should have been done when he was a little spoiled punk.

There is no debating this issue, and yet the debate continues. It is harder and harder to feel sorrow for a nation that so easily yields its legacy of decency to fear and irrationality. I have written a book with an entire chapter devoted to this subject, and I can only pray that more and more people read the information collected there, especially Christians, for there is no room at all for torture in Christianity. Yet this nation and president call themselves Christian while they destroy that very faith.

The War in Iraq is a crusade, and crusaders torture. When will America's Christians look in the mirror, and cry out in dismay at what the whole world already sees?

Re: Torture Debate

Rainbow Brain — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:50:26 -0400

Dark and difficult times lie ahead, soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy.

Ã¢â‚¬â€ Albus Dumbledore

* * *
torture
noun

the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

1 acts of torture infliction of pain, abuse, ill-treatment, maltreatment, persecution; sadism.
2 the torture of losing a loved one torment, agony, suffering, pain, anguish, misery, distress, heartbreak, affliction, scourge, trauma, wretchedness; hell, purgatory.
verb
1 the security forces routinely tortured suspects inflict pain on, ill-treat, abuse, mistreat, maltreat, persecute.
2 he was tortured by grief torment, rack, afflict, harrow, plague, agonize, scourge, crucify.

* * *
Thy Child
A Conversation

Thy child weeps, what is wrong, what shall we do?
Hug thy child, love thy child, kiss away the pain.

Thy child hungers, what shall we do?

Feed thy child, share your bread with thy child, teach thy child to reap.

Thy child misbehaves, what shall we do?

Show thy child how to live, what to do, their only asking for direction. A sign that say's "DON'T WALK", "DON'T RUN", don't do this, don't do that, gives no direction. One that say's "Walk this Way", we do it like this, isn't that a nicer way, shows a direction, points down the path.

Thy child has gone away, what shall we do?

Look upon thy child, you have weeped together, hungered together, reaped together, grown together, learned together, misbehaved together. You have shown thy child your path, thy child will follow his as you have followed yours. Thy child will point the way for your grandchildren.

Thy child remembers, what shall we do?

It is done.

Ã‚Â©Bruce Larson*Moore

* * *
Hymn of the Martyr

If you oppress me, my words will gather strength,

If you imprison me, my words will grow in power,

If you embattle me, my words will turn destruction against you,

If you kill me, my words will haunt your grandchildren's, grandchildren,

* * *
If you embrace me, my words will fade into yours, as yours fade into mine, my lips will speak of you, as yours speak of me,

Together we build tolerance, understanding, compassion, trust and truth,

Divided we foster only fear and kill only trust, divided we know only the death of the other,

Together we understand and know our lives, and embrace the Hymn of Peace for our grandchildren's, grandchildren.

* * *
Billions of people are tortured every day of their lives, with abuse, poverty and neglect, which of course in no way makes it the right thing to do, or to allow to happen.

Debate the merits of your motives, not the motives of your merit.

Ã¢â‚¬â€ Bruce Larson*Moore
The Last*War

Torture Debate

sgalindo — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:12:48 -0400

As I listen to the news today I have reached my limit on the torture issue. The headlines keep referring to it as "The Torture Debate". I am appalled that we as a nation have sunk so low that a debate about torture is an accepted part of serious conversation. There is nothing to debate. Wrong is wrong is wrong!In order to move toward a peaceful society we absolutely have to remove torture from our world. Torture is a symptom of deep seated fear, a sense of inadequacy, and the secret belief that you are really powerless. It stands to reason then that in order to eradicate the possibility of torture and instead have healthy, balanced relations, we must address the issues that generate these emotions. We must treat people and nations with respect. We must recognize the intrinsic value of everyone, and teach others by our example to do so also. If we can each do one small thing every day to encourage and empower someone else, or help a child feel strong and safe, maybe the resulting good would eventually increase exponentially. Also, right now, we must say No to torture, we have to remind our leaders there is no debate. We have to respond to the so called "Torture Debate" with the simple statement "There is nothing to debate, torture is always wrong, always a mistake, and always damages the perpetrator as much as the victim".