Susan,

Thank you for your additional comments on this topic. I have to admit, however, that I became a little lost and confused trying to figger out the various "their"s and "they"s of one of your statements.

- It is clearly in the best interest of the current administration to govern sheeple - people who are still in denial. And this is the stage within which the power elite can do its best - or worst. I predict that the bargaining stage will tax their imagination more than denial, and that they will matter less as we reach acceptance. Only then can we move on. -

I will admit also that simplicity is the key in getting through to me ;)

I used black/white language to draw attention to differences that I perceive in people's in world views and motivations (or lack thereof). You are quite right that no one fits neatly into any of the 3 categories.

The US government's complicity in 9/11 is also a matter of degree. I don't think it is 0% nor is it 100% complicity. I've seen a lot of evidence that fairly well debunks the "official" story. But a lot of the evidence that supposedly shows who exactly was responsible and what really happened is circumstantial, hearsay and conjecture. Simply debunking the official story is not enough to impeach and/or convict anyone. What we need to find is the correct story.

Therefore I actually am able leave any particular player's complicity as a "possibility". I think if justice is to be served, it is a mistake to jump to conclusions. I simply call for the questions to be asked, investigated and answered. Currently there are a lot of obvious rational questions that are met with hysterical it's-too-heinous-to-even-ask-that-shame-on-you responses. Certainly that is because of the implications if the answer turns out to be heinous. I think the only way to neutralize that tendency is to practice a certain amount of detachment.

So what are you going to do?

Jason.

Jason,

I don't know that any of us fits neatly into only one of those three categories. I would agree that most of us who are reading or contributing to a forum such as this one are indeed interested in transformation, but I think we all exhibit apathy in one form or another at times.

The fact that we're here using the high-tech, DOD-inspired internet, powered by cheap fossil fuel, means that we all are contributing to "collapse" to some degree. Anyone living in the US is enjoying a quality of life far superior to most of the planet's population. And in fact, our high standard of living is due in many ways to the systematic exploitation of other peoples and the resources of their countries.

The 9-11 complicity issue is one we all (the Mike Rupperts of the world excluded) show a certain amount of apathy toward. If one firmly believes that our government was complicit in 9-11, then I think the only real choice is to loudly and continually call for the immediate impeachment and criminal prosecution of everyone involved. It's not enough to simply say that it's a "possibility." That's what's known as a tautology - it is true by definition and therefore redundant. It's equally redundant to say that we're all somehow complicit. It's a "possibility" that 9-11 was orchestrated and carried out exactly as the mass media have described it.

If you really believe that the US government was complicit in the 9-11 attacks, I think you would be compelled to articulate the specifics of that horrific complicity, and not simply suggest that it's a "possibility" and leave it at that.

Artie

Many of us are old enough to remember what life was like in the 50's and 60's, when there was only one source of information: the Official Source. It wasn't until young Americans began coming home in body bags from a faraway jungle at the rate of dozens per day that people began to be confused. It wasn't until the Official Source was challenged by the photo of a young girl running in terror from her napalmed village that people began to be confused.

I agree with you observations, Jim, but I would venture to say that it is the uncontrollable leaking of truth that is so confusing to people today, that was not present in the same way a generation or two ago. In a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations the other day, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld marveled at this phenomenon.

I hear where you are coming from! Part of the reason some people choose to become so actively involved, at the expense of other matters they might be attending to, is because of the upwelling of passion resulting from the sense that something is terribly wrong about the way things are happening. Whether it's 9/11, the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the plight of Palestine, the planned invasion of Iran, the concept of tactical nuclear war, the coming secrecy of the M3, the reversal of Roe v Wade, the "Unitary Executive" . . . there is so much to become passionate about, it's no wonder so many of our fellow citizens, bent on fulfilling their self-interests before it is too late, cower in fear behind the latest lottery winner or celebrity couple's pregnancy.

They must drink the Kool-Aid lest their passions burn them alive.

Steve

=========

Our lives begin to end the moment that we become silent about things that matter. (Martin Luther King Jr.)

I think the human condition is always simultaneously on the brink of collapse and on the brink of transformation. There are 3 types of people: those who are contributing to the collapse, those who are working for transformation and those who are apathetically going along for the ride. And by the way, those who are contributing to collapse include the folks who choose to use avarice, rancor and disparagement as tools, not just the big name actors on the world stage.

The possibility of significant complicity in 9/11 by administrations past and present leads me to focus even more urgently on the process of transformation. Hence this website.

How to remain calm: do something pro-active, solution-oriented. Be an agent of transformation.

Peace to you,
Jason.

I agree that there is more apathy today. I think there's a lot more confusion today. A lot of organizations, many funded by corporations, practice the art of greenwashing. For a young person, regardless of education, it's hard to discern the "real" from the "fake".
Jim
http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/
Favorite Quote: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." Einstein

I think there's a lot to your denial theory. I've got my own denial issues with the "Bush/Cheney were complicit with 9-11" theory. A lot of activists are starting to talk about 9-11 again - Mike Ruppert is probably the best knwon - and the complicity theme is gaining some traction.

I can't talk dispassionately about this. Either I take it seriously, or I put it out of mind. How can one accept this theory and remain calm?

I think a lot of people approach Iraq and other war/peace issues with the same kind of reservations. Either you get deeply involved, and let your personal life suffer, or you go into denial and try to live your life. And sometimes just living your life can be hard enough without trying to be up to date on these secretive, contentious issues.

Artie

Earlier, I made the point that perceived apathy may be due to the denial stage we experience with grief and loss. The Kubler-Ross model - and it is just a model - allows for some stages to be very brief, while when a person gets "stuck," we say that the person has unresolved issues. Sometimes movement is even backward. A person in denial might revert to shock and awe. What can never happen in this model (and any other "stages" model) is that stages cannot be skipped. It is clearly in the best interest of the current administration to govern sheeple - people who are still in denial. And this is the stage within which the power elite can do its best - or worst. I predict that the bargaining stage will tax their imagination more than denial, and that they will matter less as we reach acceptance. Only then can we move on.

Another premise we could explore is that apathy is a mask people use to disguise fear. It is said that we respond to fear with a fight-or-flight response. I would add a third f-word: freeze. People can't fight, for the adversary is carrying a much bigger stick. Flight is also dangerous, and there seems to be nowhere to go to escape. When people freeze, they are trying to disappear. If the predator can't see them, they will be safe, and the predator will allow them to escape later when it goes to other prey. I would suggest that apathy often has fear behind it.

I had an interesting experience during my weekly walking vigil. I was carrying a half-sheet flyer about the International Woman's Day action and my poster with the red X's where soldiers will not be coming home, and one woman actually chased me down to get a flyer. She glanced down at it, glanced up to my face, and said, "I agree." I tried to thank her, and she blurted out, "But I don't want to talk about it!" and backed away slowly. I would not describe that response as apathetic. Why wouldn't she talk, then? Was she scared? Was she grieving? Was she just coming out of denial (chased me down)? There's more to these Joe and Jane Couchpotatoes than meets the eye.

Editor, propeace.net

at any given time there are many visitors to this site, each one taking away the result of the propeace seed having been planted, and some of those seeds will be tended and grow into the ProPeace Movement. That alone is the production of results, and given the tentative yet still extensive reach of the content found here, one can trust that these results are part of the Ripple which can only swell into a Wave, which will develop into a Tsunami of Compassion.

One simple thing to do, if your not already doing it, is to place this sites link under your post at other sites. I often include it with my The Last*War post.

www.ProPeace.net

Peace - All*Ways leads to Truth.

Truth - All*Ways leads to Peace.

BL*M
Love*Rulz - @ (Available on DVD ;)
Timeless-ink-Press.com

all our comments are constructive
and yet
what exactly is built...?
understanding?
love?
awareness?
courage?

we need something here
which we can participate in
and with even the few who are active here
produce a result!

http://www.2020worldpeace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Experiencial_Night

I did not read a lack of empathy on the part of Laura in her essay on apathy but rather a genuine frustration and angst over her inability to understand how people evince so little interest in what is happening to their country and their government. In her unhappiness over this situtation she is surely not alone but she clearly had reached a point where she could not remain silent. I think her willingness to confront her fellow citizens on this account is entirely appropriate. I could only encourage more of the same. I think the Jewish people likely would endorse her response as well and for the obvious reasons.

I myself believe that 9/11 was less a shock to our sensibilities than it was a rude awakening to our assumed place in the world and our slumbering complacency about the effect our policies were/are having in the Middle East and the world at large. We now are forced to come to terms with such concepts as blow-back and consequences. Until that event, our belief in ourselves as well as our comfort and ease allowed us to turn a willful blind eye to conditions in the world beyond our borders. Over the many years, we were encouraged to trust and believe that our leaders "know best" and "what is good for business is good for America" and that we were well advised to leave matters in their hands. What a shock to realise that our leadership had not only failed us but in fact had turned their back on the true interests of the American people. I suspect the waves of this shock and suprise ripple still in the hearts and minds of many many people, even if they are not able to articulate it.

But we are given no rest; no time to reflect and reconsider. Events unfold at a pace we can barely grasp. And, indeed, in all the subsequent confusion our elected representatives take advantage in order to advance an agenda most cannot understand let alone agree with. The dust has hardly begun to settle but, thankfully, a few begin to see that we are being decieved and used and led down a very dangerous road. But the debate has been cast is such terms, one doesn't really know how to speak out; what questions to ask and who to ask them of. A deer in the headlights is the metaphor that comes to mind.

So those of us who are not comforted by entrenched positons of right & wrong are left stuttering, mumbling and largely silent, still trying to make some sense of it all. And I suspect very few feel any comfort in the assurances provided by this administration that our security is at the top of their agenda. I suspect most, even if they cannot articulate why, fear more and worse is likely to happen.

I myself do not know much about the Elisabeth Kubler-Ross theories of how a person deals with loss. So I cannot say whether that model serves in helping us understand what has happened and how we might best respond and deal with it. I don't understand entirely about this 'stage' and that 'stage'. I don't even know if it applies. Perhaps it is my own fears and anxieties that fog my vision and understanding. But I sense in the Kubler-Ross paradigm an element of passivity and assumed inevitablity about the outcome of the 'process' that I am not at all so sanguine about.

I sometimes wish I saw evidence of rage in the population; a rage that would indicate the people are waking up and beginning to ask hard questions, a people that are courageous enough to demand straight and honest answers in place of the rhetoric and lies being served up by this administration. I long to see more and more people give over this comforting belief that "they know better than I." Perhaps then we, and our elected representatives, will hear the loud, clear voice of a people no longer willing to be used, decieved and manipulated. Perhaps emotional re-engagement is what is required - I don't know. I am inclined to believe that the power of knowledge and clear thinking serves better when emotions (however informative they might be) are unavailable or destructive. One + one + one is three... it doesn't matter how you feel about it. With a little knowledge I hope that I can speak effectively to the facts of the situation. With knowledge and dialogue I hope that we can begin to re-examine and redefine our place in the world; to accept our responsiblities and our part in creating the world in which we now find ourselves. With knowledge and dialogue I hope that we can begin to find a consensus and a peaceful and just way out of this mess.

Jack O Roses
www.usaourcountry.blogspot.com

At Earth Day '05, the youngsters with whom I talked accused the elders of copping out and the elders accused the youngsters of apathy. I don't think either view is accurate. I encourage you to take a more compassionate look at your fellow Americans. In the '60's, we had the draft, but more important is what we did NOT have - 9/11.

With that huge offense to our sensibilities, I believe the nation was thrown into a grief process a la Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. Corporate interests and a hawkish, paranoid administration were able to capitalize on our "shock and awe" in the immediate aftermath; we were not dragged under protest into this war but rather duped into supporting it. The next stage is denial, and yes, that looks like apathy, but the more you castigate a mourner in denial, the more there is to deny. Next comes anger, but it is in neither our best interest nor in the best interest of our compatriots to direct our anger at those who are still in denial. I think we need to evolve from antiwar to propeace before our anger wears out our adrenal glands. We're ready to enter the bargaining stage as exemplified by the rational, orderly attempts to legislate an end to the war. This is where the pendulum swings from the emotional mind to the rational mind. But there is still a depression stage to go through when we once again allow the emotional mind to exert its influence and we experience again our yearning for peace on earth and our dismay at the gap between the world we would create and the world in which we live. As we learn to exist in the wise mind, where rational thought and emotional reaction are both valid and valuable, it becomes possible to sit at a mediation table (logic) without sacrificing our integrity (nonviolent emotional expression).

The progressive media is currently in the anger stage; this is best seen in the movement for impeachment and other "demands" for "accountability." In a personal correspondence, a leader from the progressive democrats admitted that impeachment might be a waste of time, but not for the reasons I suggested. What disturbed this leader is that even if found guilty, the administration would keep any retirement benefits and perks. In my opinion, this is a violent and vengeful attitude. I actually feared another terrorist act - this time by "peace" activists - or an assassination attempt, until our rage turned from solely the Iraq war and became diluted by a plethora of domestic problems (Katrina relief, domestic spying), and at the same time we began to see support from even the mainstream media and other unlikely allies (e.g. the Christian right on torture). It is our task as proactive peacebuilders to help the nation to move beyond the outrage and to encourage those who are still in denial to re-establish their emotional engagement.

Editor, propeace.net

Laura,

I am interested to know if my comments are helpful to you in any way. Do you have a better understanding of the sources of the apparent apathy you witness? Do you see a way you might respond positively in the face of this perceived apathy?

Jack O Roses
www.usaourcountry.blogspot.com

Laura,

I too was there through the turbulent years of the 1960's and I am astonished by the differences between then and now. I think it significant that, unlike the '60s, there is currently no military draft. I think this fact goes a long way towards explaining some of the apparent apathy of the American public, especially on the part of college age students.

While I agree with your observations regarding this apathy and the apparent willingness of the American public to accept "the present establishment and their repressive and secretive reprehensible underhanded ways", I suspect there is more at work here than just apathy.

Recall, if you will, the remarks made by the President before the U.N. in 2001 - " you're either with us or your with the terrorists". By casting the conflict in these simplistic, black and white terms he has made any dissent or disagreement with his policies equivalent to being "pro-terrorist" effectively stiffling any serious debate or dialogue, especially on the part of the members of Congress.

Casting debate in simplistic, jingoistic terms is not a new tactic in the effort to make people fearful of speaking out. The Nazis were very successful in stifling German dissent and disagreement with their policies. Fear has a wonderful way of rendering people silent and compliant. The Nazis knew this and the Bush administration knows it too.

Recall as well the president encouraging people to "go about their normal lives... otherwise the terrorists win". It would seem there are many people all too willing to go along with that point of view.

Framing policy in lofty and noble-sounding rhetoric, rhetoric designed to stir 'patriotic emotions', is a common ruse of those that would obfuscate and deceive. But then there are those that prefer belief over critical thinking and are easily confused and distracted by the emotions they feel.

Furthermore. witness all the furor over the Danish cartoons. We have indeed come to a sorry pass when we fail to speak out for fear of 'offending' someone. But such is the case and is indicative of the dysfunctional and dangerously co-dependent nature of our society and of this government as it pursues these destructive and dangerous foreign policies. I, myself, hope that by speaking out plainly and forcefully I 'offend' everyone that is sleeping through the crimes being commited by this administration as it leads our country down a road to political, financial, environmental and moral ruin. I hope to 'offend' anyone and everyone that has allowed themselves be cowed into silent submission. Perhaps in this way, we will begin to hear the true voice of the American public as they refute the simplistic jingoism and reject the madness of their elected 'leaders'.

" The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls."

— Elizabeth Cady Stanton

Jack O Roses
www.usaourcountry.blogspot.com