Thank you John Klar for your studied response to my post.I think,after reading your comment and examining whats going on for me(something I always do),I may say that the dilemna of when to "actively defend" is,as you lay out so well,just a part of that process of moving from "anti-war"to "Pro-Peace".
You helped to take the pressure off my inclination to intensity- Cheers!
Ps. I also buzz on the brilliant teachings of Jesus. The word. Logos.Perfect sense?

It was never my intention to initiate such abstract dialogue, but it is truly a joy to share with others about what are, obviously, core feelings for us all.
Jimmi, thanks again for your candor and passion. I think we all know the feelings you express, and yet we hopefully know also that violence is not the answer. We see in young Muslim men a passion and a commitment to violence which arose from their feelings of helplessness, or anger at the pain caused to those they love, or religious zealotry.... But whatever the trigger, their violence is the wrong path.
How do we respond to hatred with love? And should we desire and decide that that is our standard, how do we reconcile our mindful determination with our natural feelings of fear and anger?
For me, the answer has come through Christ's teachings. Whether or not one is Christian, the brilliance of Christ's teachings is undeniable. I am to love my neighbor in the face of his wrongful treatment of me? Most of my life's experiences, particularly when living in urban areas, has taught me the exact opposite. But once we surrender to this initially difficult concept, we find that we feel better about ourselves, and we feel the otherwise pent-up anger melt away. In the process, we realize how toxic was our past response to being wronged.
Then, just when we think we've got a clue, our neighbor wrongs us in ignorant selfishness, and we react as humans, perhaps seething with anger (most especially if we perceive that we are defending others). When this happens to me, I feel like a failure, for it seems that as soon as the going gets tough, so do I -- too tough. But on reflection, I accept what I know in my heart is my only possible response, and slowly I erode the old mental patterns which led me to such reactions, creating in my thinking a new and better path.
You must defend your loved ones, Jimmi, but that does not mean going out to preemptively destroy. There must be balance in our path through this world, and you hit the nail right on the head: it's about the heart and the mind.

This subject is proving to be one worthy of some debate!
As a new-comer to the site I already feel acceptance. I
am being heard by you group of men-so important to listen to one another and help one another to grow in peace.

I am open to all who desire in their hearts to travel this beautiful road and have no problems with diversity of doctrine as long as we travel together believing that the way of peace is the only way that makes any sense. So I want to extend my gratitude to all of you who are taking part in what's going on here at this time.

Now I would like to once again get down something personal that I feel I need to understand in order to facilitate my own journey.

Some months ago I was involved in handing out leaflets at the Mosque in my own area of the city. The leaflets were a joint effort of "Stop the war coalition"" and the "Muslim association of Britain" and were an invitation simply to take seats on buses to a London anti-war march.

I found myself caught up in a situation with a group of young Muslim men who really needed me to understand that they did not want to be involved with left wing groups even tho they offered support.I was told that no one from the Mosque would be on the buses. They were right.

I am not concerned here with what the above means to the peace movement.These men were young. They were involved in the struggle. They are part of the whole and not representative of the Muslim world as a whole.

What concerns me is how I dealt with my own stuff in this situation.
I came away from that encounter, walked home feeling numb. I was aware that I had been in the company of a small group of young men who (from my own grasp of the encounter}would not condemn violence as a means to an end.

I arrived indoors and the first thing my eyes caught was a photograph of my two beautiful young grandchidren. In a split-second I felt a surge of anger so powerful that I know I could kill these people who could so easily support murder of innocents such as these in order to save the lives of my family that I love beyond description. It was all the more intense of course because I live as neighbors with men like this.

I am subscribing to this lovely site because I have no personal choices except to walk this spiritual path and I, like so many of you, ache when I see the images on this screen of slaughtered children and anguished parents and grandparents who are driven to pick up a weapon to fight the ones who have invaded their homelands to kill and to maim their loved ones.(again, no comments on the complexities involved around the different groups involved)

So I too have this anger within me which I need to examine. The solution to my particular dilemna is, so I have been told, integration of heart and mind.

I've been stuck with this for a while and thought It may be helpful to invite some dialogue from you lot!

Again, thank you all for your wonderful communications to date.

John Klar, thanks for sharing your deeply held convictions. You are right to believe that my feelings about self-esteem and self-love are not cynical or dismissive. I find both characteristics completely human, and in my system of belief, nothing that is inherently human is either good or bad by itself.

So to me, if Mother Theresa felt good about herself because she did good works, well that's terrific. As long as she didn't make a habit of bragging about it - which to my knowledge she did not. Any person might feel good about making a contribution, monetary or otherwise, without telling anyone else about it, just because ... well, because ...

Because it's nice to be nice, IMHO. I think most people have to be trained, conditioned, indeed brainwashed into being mean. I think it's natural to be cooperative and generous, and that's why most people feel "good" the moment they do something cooperative or generous, without anyone else knowing what they've done.

Self esteem is not about what I look like in the eyes of others. It's about what I look like in my own eyes, in the mirror of my soul.

John, I certainly respect your convictions to follow the advices given in the Sermon on the Mount, and I commend your goal of emancipation from the cycles of hatred and despair. I hope that you can accept that I and many others of our fellow beings seek the same goals and through the same means, even though motivated by other convictions, and not sharing your religion.

John, I highly respect your right and ability to disagree with anything about*me, but please do not assume that i am editing anyone for whatever purpose. I edit only my*self and all that one sees of me is from me and that which guides me*. That i was simply putting my*own clarity into your point, and basically agreeing with you is my truth on the matter, and so one may choose to either accept me or reject me, as one may also embrace that truth or reject it.

Respectfully*

BL*M
The 13-Establishments of Truth

PS - I always enjoy your posts and find they are a very interesting window into the current reality of man.

Dear Jimmi:
Please don't apologize for telling your story. Clearly you have recognized that the culture of consumptive acquisitiveness is an empty promise. I was devastated in my peak by a terrible illness called fibromyalgia syndrome, but I came to realize what is truly important in life -- compassion for others. My illness was subsequently determined to have been caused by Lyme Disease, and I am slowly improving after four years of antibiotic therapy. Three years ago, I couldn't have typed this e-mail to you.
I'm saddened that your experience with evangelicals was disappointing. In my case, I had never had any faith, and my illness led me to a realization that there is most certainly a higher power. This eventually led me to Christianity, but only after some very disappointing experiences with so-called Christians.
The important thing for all of us is that we be searching for some spiritual understanding of ourselves and our consciousness. Clearly you are still on that path, for which you are to be commended and encouraged, whatever direction that may lead you. If we are not seeking, we are not alive.
It is tragic that the American government has become such a perversion of this journey, dehumanizing the people of Iraq (all of whom are God's children) in an Orwellian neo-con insanity which "justifies" the destruction of so many with military "superiority." The "few bad apples" of our government are not the military scape-grunts: they are rotting away in the White House, spoiling the rest of the barrel.... Jesus taught to beware ravenous wolves, that we would know them by their fruit...evil, rotten fruit.
God does not want religion: he wants a relationship with us. Religion too often turns people away from this relationship. However, I must respectfully disagree with Rainbow Brain -- for although I might like to interpret the Gospels so expansively as to read "the way of God" vs. "the way to God," this would be to question Christ's specific and repeated teachings, so as to interpret them in a way that would avoid conflict or appease my conscience. It is not I who say that Christ is the way to the father, but Jesus who said so. As C.S. Lewis explained (in Mere Christianity), we either accept Him as who He said He was, or we reject Him -- for we cannot have our cake and edit Him too.
I wish you a fruitful, diligent journey toward truth, and thank you again for sharing your humanity.

Dear Stereoman (Steve):
I surely agree with your assessment of Christians, although I wouldn't narrow this down to two groups: there is a spiritual continuum, where some people believe that simply acknowledging Christ is sufficient, and they'll pick up the matter at their demise; others have fully embraced their faith (like Mother Theresa), and thereby strive to emulate Jesus. Yet none of us is Jesus...

The path between these two poles is the process of progressive sanctification, wherein one tries to recognize one's faults and become more like Christ. None of us ever reaches the end of this journey.

But I don't believe there is a distinction between self-esteem and self-love. I heartily agree that there are indeed other factors which influence us toward evil, but cynics suggest something along the lines that you imply (though I know this isn't what you meant) when they argue that those who help others do so ultimately from a motivation of self-enhancement, either through trying to make themselves look better in other people's eyes, or by enhancing their own feelings of self-worth by doing something beneficial for another.
It's certainly fine to feel good about helping others, but Christian teaching encourages us to be more like Christ, who helped others out of love and compassion, with no self-interest. For this reason the New Testament tells us to give to others and not boast about it, even to give in secret. Aren't people capable of doing good for others out of compassion and without self-interest? This is the standard we should all aspire to without regard to self. Yes, we all fall short -- Mother Theresa was simply someone who saw this truth, and was further along this path than most. Conversely, those who call themselves Christian but fall far short of this compassion lead others to scorn the faith they feign. We must all choose our own paths: do we wish to be Mother Theresas, or hypocrites? In our own eyes, others' eyes, or God's eyes? I am not my brother's keeper, nor is he mine: I must not let the poor example of others lead me to scorn Christ....
And while you're correct that Jesus taught that we are all equal, in his example to us (which we are to endeavor to emulate) he gave the ultimate sacrifice for others, placing us above himself, even though he was blameless. It is this spirit which must animate true Christians: for if we are saved, our lives are not of paramount importance (Jesus said he who tries to save his life will lose it). What becomes of greater importance is helping others to find similar faith and freedom from fear: in this sense, we at least attempt to place others as more important than self.
This may not jibe well with schools of psychology, which generally view all behavior as self-motivated. Many would argue that even Mother Theresa was self-motivated, in that she sought reward in Heaven. But this is a cynical and hopeless way to view the purpose of existence. The miracle of Jesus Christ was not whether he walked on water, healed the sick, or raised the dead -- His miracle is with us now in the Gospels themselves, in His words that offer so much hope and unselfish good: that we must love our enemies, return evil with good, not for self-interest, but so that we may be freed from the cycle of hatred and despair which would otherwise consume the world. This in its pure understanding arises not from a love of self, and has nothing to do with self-esteem. It arises from an overwhelming gratitude to He who gave us everything, most especially a new understanding of life, an identity in love, a freedom from self-condemnation and from a constant suppressed despair.
It's easy to dismiss this also as self-interest, but to look at it another way: if one were truly freed from motivations of self-interest, and thereby gained a perspective of equal love for every single human being on the planet (which is what Jesus had), what would be one's motivation in action? None of us fully gets there, but Mother Theresa had the right idea, and her behavior then makes total sense to so many of us who perceive that we have no capacity to give in such a way. Why would she work so hard, in poverty and deprivation, to constantly give to others? Why, we might ask, would she sacrifice herself in such an intense way? Because, for her there was no sacrifice at all....

And please note the emphasis should never be on, "the way" to God, so when this phrase is written and taught today, the translation might be, the*way "of" God, for this is the true meaning, understanding and path to the lesson, follow the way of god, in order to find the truth to god.

BL*M
The 13-Establishments of Truth

Thank you Jason for your response to my comment. Yes, it can be a lonely road from time to time. I live in a multi-racial inner-city area and find support in simple conversation from peace-lovers of several faiths.I draw no comfort however from having my ear bent by the ranters. Those who tell us how we must think and what we must do and in what we must believe are the largest self-serving group in the world, made up of Christians and Muslims in the main- as you say; the religious people.

Jimmi, I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Spiritual people inspire me. Religious people frighten me." I think truth is obscured when the values of the group are placed above the value of seeking. The group can only serve a purpose up to a point. At some point the seeker must venture outside of the box and become an individual as opposed to a member.

I think your experience of self-inquiry and realization is more and more common. The transformation that takes place with self love and acceptance deserves a place as a recognized transformation in a human life, just like the transformation from childhood to adulthood that takes place in adolecense. Everyone's transformation is unique in character and timing. Cultural support should be there to help guide the process to fruitful completion. Online forums and discussion groups are a good resource. But don't forget to branch out when group-think sets in!

Loving self, as my own personal journey has showed me is not the same self-esteem as John has posited, although the two are totally inseparable.My life was horrendously dysfunctional thro' addictions to alcohol, drugs, pornography, sex and sexual relationships.
Up until only a few short years ago I guess I may have been seen by some to be loving only my self and indulging my habits at the expense of anybody who was unfortunate enough to know me.
How could I have loved my self when all I did was maintain a state of chaos both inside and all around me?
I am only now learning to love my self. This process involves getting to know my self,facing up to what I have been and what I still am.It must have forgiveness right in amongst this process.
As I learn what has been going on for me for almost all of my life,and as I continue to learn about "what makes me tick", and as I,as a result of this conscious process,begin to receive invaluable insights into my subconscious too, so I am beginning to love me exactly as I am, warts and all.
This rather lovely process has its share of pain too and I have been led to ponder if this process is n't precisely what Jesus described when He talked about being "Born again".The analogy certainly fits comfortably in all respects.Personally, at the risk of sounding a bit critical, the time I spent amongst the Evangelical Christians was unable to help me to this place I now describe.Rather, it only served to give me a new suit of clothes.I learned to talk the talk and to try and convince everybody that my way was the only way. What a supreme arrogance!(I refer to myself and not all Evangelicals}
Would it be too grand a leap to say that " such ignorance of self must of necessity mean ignorance of all around us?"Well, that certainly applies to me.
At sixty I'm a bit of a late developer but I am finally learning how to love my family, my friends and people I simply "see". This wonderful process has recently moved me from the "Anti-War camp"which seems to be attractive to so many angry though mainly well-meaning people,to the "Pro-Peace Movement" which will hopefully help me to develop along true Christian/true Islamist/true Humanist ways.
"The way of peace" Guess this is my application to join the learners and I know that there are many such on this site.Apologies for being personal and longwinded but I need all the support I can get from others on this path who know where I'm at.

Good post, Jimmi. Speaks my mind.

In my experience, there are two distinct branches of the Christian faith. On the one hand, there is the Pat Robertson branch, and on the other, the Jim Wallis. Whereas some Christians gravitate to the example of Mother Theresa, others go toward James Dobson.

I think it's as much a mistake to homogenize all Christians as it is to paint all Muslims with the same broad brush.

While I agree with you, John, that selfishness can be a powerful destructive force, I cannot agree that a person becomes destructively selfish as a result of gaining self-esteem. It seems clear to me that other factors are involved. As you point out, self-esteem is often enhanced simply by engaging in unselfish service to others.

Jesus admonished his followers to love their fellow beings as themselves, not more and not less.

Steve

=========

Our lives begin to end the moment that we become silent about things that matter. (Martin Luther King Jr.)

Unfortunately, the self-esteem movement has yielded only selfish people. It is false logic to presume that if only we can love ourselves, then we will love others -- it's the other way around, for if we learn to love and be concerned about others, then we feel better about ourselves, and we're less focused on self. "Selfishness" is the root cause of war and strife, not the solution.
While I agree that many people of supposed faith do not carry the truth of spirituality in their hearts, and even use the pretension of faith to harm others and justify their own superiority, this is not true faith. Perhaps we ought to look at the examples (though frighteningly scarce, in today's world) of those who practice true faith and compassion, rather than dismiss faith based on the more common worst cases. True faith is exhibited in compassionate and selfless action, not a focus on "loving self." Jesus gave everything to others, and his truth deserves more than to be "judged" by the hypocrisy of those who say they know Him, but are themselves deceived. Finding truth and goodness is a process, not a destination, and we must never cease to seek....

Whichever means an individual chooses to use as a system that helps to move them as individuals along the path towards perfection must always be a personal choice.During my own personal journey I have learned however that many followers have taken on board the "axioms" of their culture's religion without truly and thoroughly engaging the mind and making intellectual decisions about the issues that are causing our world to disintegrate before our eyes.
What I'm saying here is that individual choices are made at many different levels of understanding and that too many choices are made as a result of persuasion by the ranters (ranters aplenty in both the Christian and the Muslim faiths).
Peace starts inside the heart of the individual and that process must surely begin with knowledge of self by recognizing that we have a serious task in life simply to learn how to truly love ourselves before we can ever hope to truly love the people close to us, our families and our friends,let alone the world. Seems so frustrating at times does n't it!

I doubt that Christian believe that they are better. Many may believe they have the better believe. I guess many from other religions may also believe that their religion is superior or better. This is so far legitimate and is a part of the freedom of worship and freedom of opinion.
I have no problem with this as long as it does not implicate discrimination and offence to other religions and believes

http://www.propeace.at