For many Arabas, the reaction of the US and the West on the outcome of the election in Palastine is not fully comprehensive. On one hand they pretend to promote the democratisation of the Arab World on the other hand they do not want to accept and to recognize a democraticly elected organization - One of the few in th Arab World-

When they talk about democraty they mean obviously a democracy conducted by their interest.

Putting pressure on a democrticaly elected government by cutting the padly needed finacial help is a sort of ..... , and is undemocratic. This will produce only more frustration and radicalism.

http://www.propeace.eu
http://www.suraigu.com

If you oppress me, my words will gather strength,

If you imprison me, my words will grow in power,

If you embattle me, my words will turn destruction against you,

If you kill me, my words will haunt your grandchildren's, grandchildren,

* * *
If you embrace me, my words will fade into yours, as yours fade into mine, my lips will speak of you, as yours speak of me,

Together we build tolerance, understanding, compassion, trust and truth,

Divided we foster only fear and kill only trust, divided we know only the death of the other,

Together we understand and know our lives, and embrace the Hymn of Peace for our grandchildren's, grandchildren.

©Bruce Larson*Moore
2005

Love Rulz - @
www.Timeless-ink-Press.com

Let me turn the question around a bit. Is peace possible if we do not communicate with a democratically elected government?

It was the will of the Palestinian people to bring Hamas to greater power, just as it was the will of most [sic] of the American people to bring Bush to power. This has been an escalation of extremism and fundamentalism on all sides. Is it working? Are we safer yet? Is the world less violent yet? Where does this escalation end?

Will the Israeli people react by bringing militants to power in Israel?

Leaders of countries/groups that have difficult conflicts should meet face-to-face regularly. This is not a concession. It is the mature thing to do. At the very least it will be much more difficult to bomb another country or group's men, women and children into oblivion if you have to look their leader in the eye regularly. At most it is respectful, fosters legitimacy of these real human beings and their issues, and might actually build understanding between them. Imagine...

Can you see the situation getting better without communication?

"Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei and his cabinet have resigned after the Islamic resistance movement Hamas claimed victory in Wednesday’s parliamentary elections." The Israeli government refused in a comment today to neogtiate with A Hamas-lead government.

Shall Israel negotiate with Al Hamas, shall and will the US negotiate with Hamas?

What are the consequents for the Peace if both countries refuse to enter in negotiation with the legitimate representative of the Plastinian People?

Submitted by: http://www.propeace.eu

The purpose of this site is discussion, so your input is most welcome here. Many who read this site are working hard for truth and freedom, each in their own way. In other words, we don't all agree on the means but our goal is the same, as you put it "heaven on earth."

Your writing seems so filled with anger, scorn and ridicule. I personally am no longer inclined toward this kind of expression as I find that it not productive in moving us toward heaven on earth. However, I am aware that at certain stages in life one needs outlets for this kind of expression. I've been there...

*peace to you*

Jason.

I'll have to disagree or ask for a little clarification there. I think the oil crisis very real, and it is, as you imply, a monetary and banking crisis as well. Oil and money are inxtricably linked within the American economy.

Big Oil appears to be in agreement with independent geologists, petrochemical engineers, energy bankers and progressive eco-environmentalists that worldwide oil production has peaked or will peak soon. The implications of "peak oil" are hard to overstate. I will repeat here what I've said before; the United States has 5% of the world's people and that it consumes 25% of the world's energy. The "non-negotiable" American lifestyle - as Dick Cheney puts it - is completely dependent upon imported oil. The United States produces only 20% of the oil we consume on any given day, the rest comes from places where the people really don;t like us that much. And because of our addiction to foreign oil, we are deeply indebted - 100s of billions of dollars - to people who don't particularly like us.

If we in the US could not import oil, we would exhaust ALL of our own reserves within 5 years, at the current rate of consumption. And the condition for US natural gas just as dire.

Try to imagine a day in your life without these fossil fuels - no car, no electricity for most us, no grocery stores with fresh food shipped in from around the world. No water pumped to your house. No way to commute to your job.

In short, without oil, our economy freezes up like a big V8 would.

And I think The Powers That Be are fully aware of all this, and that our secretive, desperate foreign and monetary policies reflect that awareness.

And while I feel that a lot of the peace movement is naive about some of these issues that we face, and that the Christian religion is often corrupted to serve the purposes of corrupt people, I do believe that people are spiritual beings with spiritual needs. And we need to try to keep these things in some kind of balance.

Artie

Hi Again, Artie!

Thanks for your response and I have come to the same conclusion that we have to do what we feel and think as individuals in these times.

As for Al Qaeda, this is a CIA fiction operation used to further their terrorist activities. I hear Osama Bin-Laden died in 2001. We're living in Orwell's double-think and quack-speak of 1984.

I come from the heart and head and have grazed in the pleasant and distracting pastures of the so-caled New Age Movement (where Santa really does come down the chimney) in my exploration of truth. The innane platitudes of 'his holiness' and others like: we are all one, love one another, there is a new age opportunity dawning for peace and harmony are valid to the human heart but do not reflect the human experience. The human heart is NOT in control of World events; hence, the head is useful to engage. The sheep bleat endlessly on about the obvious which was all attributable to the one called Jesus The Christ when the Bible was written around 300-500 AD. However, there is the anti-life and anti-christ in control of this World now and as I have taken issue with this site before, the term and meaning of 'peace' to the despots in control means DEATH - the genocidal silencing of the lambs. When reps of the IMF or that other disreputable outfit of warmongers called the UN go on so-called peace missions, war follows. The deceptions prevalent on this planet are mind-boggling. This calls for individul and direct relationship and guidance from The Divine within and there is little point in wasting precious time and life convincing the sheep that there is a World outside the crowded little pen we have been cattle-prodded into. And the bleat goes on. We are not, I have concluded, here to save the World it is a question now of protecting and liberating our Souls. The so-called environmental and oil crisis appears to be another illuminati-inspired ruse to justify the 'lack and dependancy' mentality of the sheeple and commit more to 'war' and loss of life to the usual beneficiaries - the banks. If you give me your private email address, I can forward you some pointers I have discovered on my journey so far. As Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead". Call for peace, yes, peace you will have in the form of a mass graveyard. Freedom is the sovereign right of the soul and worth fighting for and if the majority of sheeple people had the courage or even interest in pursuing the truth, these parasitic warmongers would be vanquished. The pen is cosy, warm and safe, (a new take on the pen is mightier than the sword? haha) where the lazy and stupid doze amid fellow bleaters chanting the media-spawned lies which construct the mental prison they so lifelessly inhabit. So be it, leave them to the inevitable slaughterhouse. All are equal in that we have exactly the same choices to ask, seek and find truth or live on a daily toxic diet of mainstream media.
If you desire to join those of us tasting the tantalising nourishment outside the pen and hear a different song, you are welcome to forward me you email address and I'll send you some extraordinary links to freedom. serenamartin13@yahoo.co.uk The only way to peace is through personal liberation. Together, we can create heaven on earth by having the intelligence and courage to live freely on a prison planet.

Truly, I don't understand the purpose of this site or so many others -dangerous distractions, flirting with filth like the UN and corrupt politicians. Like our Blair says "The Rules of The Game Have Changed" He and other mafia terrorists think they hold the trump over humanity and the majority of people, being completely irresponsible and dependant give their lives and the lives of their children over to these parasitic vampires and fund the efficient slaughterhouses with their taxes. Ooh, what a rant! May truth and freedom be with you.

You pose a tricky question, Mike. There was no al-Qaeda presence in Iraq prior to the US invasion, and my guess is that any lingering al Qaeda presence subsequent to the withdrawal of US military would not be no more intractable of a problem than the fundamental ethnic and religious differences that have always plagued the country.

I tend to believe that as a loosely knit confederation of religious fanatics, it makes little sense to negotiate with "leaders" of al Qaeda, and more sense to "remove the need for terrorism" as you term it, by attending to the concerns and dignity of the indigenous peoples in the various countries where terrorism is rampant.

Artie I don't want to sidetrack the discussion into economics, but in regards to tax resistance through voluntary poverty, I will point out that such a practice precludes the ability to pay back one's debts at a highly accelerated rate. For an individual to avoid paying income taxes, your income has to be down in the 8K range, tough to pay off a mortgage at that level. Tough to even HAVE a mortgage!

Steve

=========

Our lives begin to end the moment that we become silent about things that matter. (Martin Luther King Jr.)

Perhaps in part you misunderstood what I wrote.

I wasn’t advocating a peace that wasn’t just, or a peace based only on compromise. I was advocating talk and dialogue dedicated to resolving current problems and looking for or at possible win/win solutions so that both sides could feel happy with the result.

Should we not talk to any of the leaders of al Qaeda, because they are not a government organization? I would suggest that these men became leaders of an alternative movement precisely because they were shut out by their own governments, governments we support financially and politically to the tune of billions of dollars per year. The more they are shut out, the more we can expect them to turn to violent forms of protest as their only viable recourse. I suggest opening up a more constructive channel of dialogue that will take their concerns and issues seriously. If we don’t, we only foster the further reliance on and even escalation of terrorist tactics as a means of becoming heard and as a means of gaining influence. Bin Laden is not a head of state, of course, but many throughout the Islamic world see him as an important spokesperson for their concerns and dignity. I think we can show respect and concern for these people, the vast majority of whom have never turned to violence, by taking the concerns and issues at stake quite seriously, and trying to do something constructive about them.

What we’d be doing if we did this, is removing any need for terrorism. If people perceive you as fair and as effectively concerned about their welfare as well as one’s own, then they are not likely to decide to kill you. They’d be hurting themselves if they did.

Mike

I agree in principle with most of what you're saying, Steve. But...I think some gold might be a good thing to have, as long as you remember that you can't eat gold, and it's near record prices right now.

Betting that interest rates will go higher is a pretty safe bet, but an economic downturn might affect your ability to earn and repay your debts, regardless of the great rate you might have.

I'm beginning to think that some form of war tax resistance (http://www.nwtrcc.org/what_is_wtr.htm )is the most effective way to bring peace to this country. Make just enough money to avoid paying federal taxes that feed the war machine. Live simply, humbly, and within your means. Conserve, use cashless barter with like-minded people.

Here are some words of inspiration. I think you'll recognize the speaker:

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a
needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

"Now when he heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

In other words, we can't buy our way into security or happiness.

Thanks for your comments, Artie. Yes, it's a big IF, but as you point out, the time has come. "Prepare yourself" indeed.

Something important to think about in terms of one's debt: as the US economy tanks, the dollar will be worth less and less. That means that the extra dollars you spend today to pare down your debt are worth far more than the same number of dollars a year from now making your minimum payment. Use your extra money to buy things that have real lasting value, such as gold, or property. Invest in alternative energy and conservation. Make money on your values.

If you have interest rates under 5% on your debt, pay it off as slowly as possible. A few years from now, the interest on an ordinary savings account is likely to be higher than that, and you will get to enjoy a tacit revenge on your credit holders, who will be losing money every day they carry your loan.

Steve

=========

What you do may not seem important . . . but it is important that you do it. (attributed to Mahatma Gandhi)

That's a big IF. The US economy is completely dependent upon cheap imported oil and loans from foreigners. We're the world's largest debtor. Here in the US we consume 3 times more oil than we can produce. We borrow hundreds of billions of dollars from foreigners every year because have a NEGATIVE savings rate. In short, we live in an unsustainable economic dream world here in the US, and our wake-up call is coming soon. Unfortunately, our leaders are not telling us the cold, hard truth about our shameful dependencies. Any major constriction in our oil supply will send us into a severe recession. We are establishing a permanent military presence in the Middle East not to steal oil, but to insure our continued access to the world's declining allotment of oil.

Prepare yourself now. As a start, read this essay from John Michael Greer. http://www.oilcrisis.com/whatToDo/decline.htm . Learn all you can about "peak oil." Basically, learn to live with much less of everyhing. Get out of debt, pay off your mortage and learn to how to grow your own food and take care of your own medical problems.

And try to remember that virtue is its own reward.

Artie

Good points, all. The elephant in the room is the dependence on oil of course. It is true that to achieve a "just" peace, all sides must give something. It is clear to me that the US must "give" its dependence on oil, particularly foreign oil. If that happens, the people in the Middle East are no longer living on top of a precious resource, so the reason for attacking and occupying their countries no longer exists.

The "War on Terra" is not about bin Laden. He was a straw man to start with and he remains a straw man. He is not al Zarqawi, not A. Q. Khan, not Zawahiri, not Mohammed Atta . . . he's a lot like a certain figurehead President in a certain so-called Republic in the Western hemisphere. If he ceased to exist tomorrow, what would change, what would be more of same?

Artie made the point about consumption. If the US were a more moderate consumer of resources, there would be less reason for people in developing nations to resent their lesser share. Each of us has the opportunity to do something about that, both in our personal lives and in advocacy. To be in that life and power that takes away the occasion for war, as a great spiritual philosopher once said.

Steve

=========

What you do may not seem important . . . but it is important that you do it. (attributed to Mahatma Gandhi)

@ MTOLincol

You have pointed out „The ONLY WAY“. I emphasize again, yes, only a just peace is a sustainable peace. Peace that is based only on a compromise is not sustainable. Peace that only considers the right of one party is not sustainable; peace only to assure that the IRAQI OIL flows again is not sustainable.

How could the US negotiate with an organization that has no legitimating from a folk to negotiate? States negotiate with States and not with organisation!

Negotiation with al-Qaeda at this situation is the wrong signal; the consequences of such a move are unpredictable for the whole region.

Again, the ONLY WAY for a SUSTAINABLE AND LASTING PEACE IS A JUST PEACE THAT CONSIDERS THE LIGITIM RIGHTS OF ALL PARTIES

Submitted by: http://www.propeace.eu

It's not too late, as long as he's still alive. He's such a symbolic leader, if he got involved and had some success in achieving some of his more positive goals thru discussions with the West, that would, I think, be immensely meaningful, and symbolic. Many would benefit. It would set an example to the world of how negotiation and dialogue can achieve more good than violence, war, and terrorism.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting caving in on a thing. I'm suggesting a win/win approach, where both sides focus on mutual gain.

Re this comment, I think we have to be careful to not claim to know more than we can really know. The "only" way? I don't think we know that at all. Yes, a more just approach might help, but what does that mean? whose understanding of what is just? What we think of as "just" the other side might not see that way at all. And therefore, talking and mutual problem-solving is of the essence. Both sides need to come to realize they can achieve more of what they want through discussion and dialogue and barter than by force and coercion.

Mike

I would question that what we're doing now in Iraq is a "negotiation" (tho I understand what you mean). To negotiate usually means to try to achieve one’s goals through discussion and dialogue. That would be the opposite of what we’re doing now in Iraq, where we’re trying to manipulate Iraqis by force and against their will to do what we see as in our interests, regardless of what’s in their interest. We’re committed now to a win/lose approach there, where one side wins, the other side loses. We’d be much more successful if we pursued a win/win approach. The war would then likely soon end.

Moreover, given that we are as dependent on Middle East oil as you say, our current policy of antagonizing friends there and making fresh enemies there, making ourselves more hated throughout the region, doesn't quite make sense, to my way of thinking. Instead, it seems to me to be a policy of madness, folly, and blindness on our part, as I was saying. If we indeed need oil, wouldn't we do much better to make more friends there, rather than more enemies? Our present war pursues a lose/lose policy. In war there are no winners, usually. (Repelling an invasion would be an exception, but that's not what we're doing here.) We could do far better, making friends and gaining access to oil at the same time. It would to be in our interest, and theirs, to do this. War only hurts us both. And many terminally.

Mike

The US presence in Iraq is a negotiation to make more money. I think the peace community needs to understand that the US is fighting a resource war. The US consumes one-quarter of ALL the oil produced in the world today, yet we produce only 7 percent. This imported oil is the life blood of the US economy, and as we've seen in Katrina, any interription in the flow of blood can have a very dramatic effect on prices.

Consider that if the US could not import oil due to geopolitica/economic causes, the US would exhaust its own reserves of oil in 4 years, at the current rate of consumption.

And it's not just the US is addicted to oil. MAny knowledgeable oil industry professional now believe that the people of planet earth have consumed half of all oil contained in the earth. It took 150 years to do it, but at the present rate of consumption and growth, we will consume the second half of the allotment in much less time.

And China is growing, and that growth threatens the US abilty to fill its current needs. And it should be no surprise that Baghdad is smack dab in the geological middle of 2/3 of world's remaining oil reserves.

Anyone who harbors a grudge of any kind at the US would know that removing the US oil supply would cripple the economy. Islamic fundamentalists resent the fact that the oil underneath their countries fuels the US military and the decadent US consumer culture. Those in power in the US cannot afford to let extremists of any kind take control of the big OPEC countries.

Some have noted that without cheap oil, the earth will not sustain its current population, but will inexorably shrink to pre-oil levels of 2 billion or so.

So, think of the US presense in Iraq as a great big armed negotiation for the continued flow of the earth's remaining oil at as low a price as the market will bear.

I remember Rumsfled making the crass remark about troops being "fungible" or replaceable, which does show the Bush administration's characteristic lack of respect for human life. The irony is that oil is now less fungible than human life.

Artie

Applying such an approach toward al-Qaeda is a bit late, Bin-Laden does not seem to bee any longer the head/coordinator of the world wide acitivities, he seems to be only a symbol for hundreds of small groups acting independently. Beside this, these people have became very much self-confident and their aims and principals seem to be absolute and not a subject to negotiation.

The only way to stop terrorism is to make a justice approach to the issues of the region including the Palestinian question.

Natives of the Middle East are not “Terrorists by nature”. The sympathy for Al-Qaeda is only due to the ignorant behaviour of the US to the crucial problems of this region over the last 30-40 years which has boosted religious fanaticism

Let the US withdraw from the Region and things will change -slowly- to the better.

submitted by: http://www.propeace.eu